A Major Chord - A minor pentatonic solo?

[Bobs]

In the key of A Major you play a scale progression where the I chord is A major = A C#E. You are allowed to play an A minor pentatonic solo over this chord progression which contains the notes A-C-D-E-G. Doesn't the C# of the A Major chord clash with the natural C note of the pentatonic scale??? Do you have to bend the C up to a C# to make it work??? Any suggestions appreciated. email bobs@dyna-sys.com

[screamin eagle]

Well it's still a C, but why would you insist on a progression in the key A being A-C#-E. Those are the notes that make of the A major chord, however you seem to be confusing the three notes that make up a major chord with a chord progression. Certainly you can do that, but those notes are the notes that make up a major chord--the I-III#-V.

Basic, common chord 'progressions' are: I-IV-V, I-V-IV, I-V, I-VI-II-V. Notice in most of these the V-I change. The V is the dominent chord to the I and suggests the most tension and when you go back to the I from the V you are 'releasing' the tension. A sort of tension and resolve sorta thing, which is the basis of all rock and roll.

However, any note of any A scale will work when soloing in the key of A. No matter what note that it, if it is in the scale then it will work and sound good. The key is to suggest the chord changes of the progression by hitting that corresponding note where ever it is in the scale or on the fingerboard.

This is why you need to know the notes of the fingerboard, but there are 'tricks' to learning this--like the octave trick. Start with memorizing the notes on the 6th and 5th string, which is not all that hard considering you may already know half or more of them just from learning barre chords. And once you know the notes on the 6th string, you know all the notes on the 1st string since they are both E (in standard tuning that is). At this point you have memorized every note on 3 strings--apply the octave trick and you will be able to figure any note out by just knowing the 6th and 5th string notes--more later. Chew on this first.

[Bobs]

Hi Screaming Eagle
Thank you for the quick reply.
You have misunderstood what I was describing. Let's say I have a I-IV-V ie. A Major - D Major - E Major. The A Major chord itself = AC#E. Daivd's lesson states that you can always solo using the A minor pentatonic scale over the I-IV-V major progression while in the key of A Major. Thus, doesn't the C# note in the A Major chord clash with the C natural note that's in the A minor pentatonic scale A-C-D-E-G ??
I hope I have described it clearer this time.
Thanks
Bob

[Bryant]

Everything I read indicates that the A minor pentatonic scale can be used over the key of A major. Like you I find this difficult to understand, none of the books I have explain explain why this the case. You can of course use the A major pentonic scale over the key of A major. As you probably already know, the A major pentatonic scale uses the same box pattern as the A minor pentatonic scale but begins 3 frets closer to the nut, the same position as the F# pentatonic minor scale. The notes of the scale are A B C# E F# A. No chromatic alterations from the parent A major scale. Hope this helps. If anyone knows why the pentatonic minor scale works over the major parent scale I would really appreciate an explanation as well.:confused:

[TomServo1]

If you remember that the minor scale is just another mode of the major scale, it makes sense that you should be able to play a minor pentatonic over a major key, since you can play any other mode over a major key.

[Bryant]

If you remember that the minor scale is just another mode of the major scale, it makes sense that you should be able to play a minor pentatonic over a major key, since you can play any other mode over a major key.

The minor scale is the aolien mode of the major scale, however the A minor scale is the Aolien mode of the C major scale. This results in the chromatic alterations when trying to play the A minor pentatonic over the A major scale. The more I am looking into this and experimenting with some leads the more it appears that in fact one would play the A major pentatonic scale over a progression in A major and the A minor pentatonic scale over a progression in A minor. The modes of any scale do not result in any chromatic alteration from the parent key, each mode simply changes the tonic note. This allows you to emphasize the induvidual chords without departing from the key. In others words, the key of A minor, The notes of the scale would be A B C D E F G. When playing the ii or B chord you could use the Dorian mode and your lead line would use the B note as the Tonic with the notes of the scale( now B C D E F G A ) still remaining chromatically unaltered from the natural A minor scale. So in this example, if you chose to utilize the Pentatonic scale, In the Key of A Minor you would use the Pentatonic minor scale ( A C D E G A). On the other hand in the Key of A major, (A B C# D E F# G# A) you would utilize the A major penetatonic scale ( A C# D E G# A).
Of course in any solo or melody, some chromatic alterations can be used to add a mood, tension or whatever to the piece. It is my understanding that these alterations are geneally used sparsely and with care to achieve the
desired effect.
To answer the original question, I think when people talk about using a pentatonic minor scale over a Major key they are talking about the relative major i.e. the A minor pentatonic would work over C major because there are no chromatic alterations from the C major scale ( C D E F G A B C) to the A minor pentatonic scale( A C D E G A).
I am still learning this for myself so if anyone has a good explanation to the original post or can straighten out any of the ideas I have wrong I would like to see a reply. This thread has made me do a little homework. Yuck

[TomServo1]

You're right. I'm just learning this stuff myself, so thanks for catching me ;)

I don't have my guitar handy to experiment with this right now, but I think you could look for the intervals between the notes in the chord you're playing over and the C and G and see where it'd be "legal" to use those notes.
For example, the C# major chord has C#, F, and G#, so C is the:
minor 2nd to C# if C is lower than C#, major 7th if C is higher
perfect 4th to F if C is lower than F, perfect 5th if C is higher
minor 6th to G# if C is lower than G#, major 3rd if C is higher

So, using this logic(I may be wrong), you could theoretically play a C over a C# major chord as long as the C is played in an octave higher than the notes that exist in the chord.

Here's a useful interval chart I got from my guitar teacher, recreated by me. I hope it helps you decipher this stuff.
http://tomservo1.ziest.com/intervals.jpg

My head hurts. :p

[Cobalt1254]

Try dropping the Amin shape you are using down three frets and now you have A Major Pent. See how that sounds. In the end, let your ear be the judge.

Cobalt

[bpoco]

Bobs - I don't consider my self an expert by any means ... so take this with a grain of salt. Here's how I understand it.

Music is full of GUIDELINES ... but, not necessarily rules. It's your ear (and society's "ear") that ultimately decides whether a particular scale works or not.

Yes, the Am pentatonic does contain notes that clash over a progression containing A major chords (e.g A-E-D). The C and G note don't belong in an A major scale. They create dissonance and tension when they are played.

But, sometime in the last 100 years a musician started using this combination. Over time, more musicians gravitated towards this combination of minor pent over major scale. The combination gained popularity and the "sound/feel" was eventually tagged with a name .... Blues. The dissonance, tension (and eventual release) created a musical feeling that (apparently) matched the musician's emotion.

It sounds natural today because we've heard it for so many years on radio and albums. I'm guessing that if you played an Am pentatonic over an A major scale 150 years ago, it wouldn't have been as readily accepted.

Over time, various scales and key combos have risen to the top of the musical food chain.

I've got a new scale called the Am quadratonic. :D It's got A#B#C#D# in it. Maybe with enough people using it in songs for the next 25 years it will become acceptable and "allowed". But I doubt it.

bpoco

[Mr.GuitarTheory]

Blues Guitar Theory

Blues and blues-based rock songs break away from traditional guitar theory by apply the minor pentatonic scale over a major based chord. Specifically, this occurs over a dominant seven chord (written as simply 7), or at least a chord functioning as a dominant seven. The only chord in a key that produces a dominant seventh is V (5). This is because the fifth scale degree is a major triad, and it has a flat 7th interval. Mixolydian Mode stems from the fifth degree.

Blues Guitar Scales

Playing the minor pentatonic scale over a major based chord produces the follow intervals:

Root, b3, 4, 5, b7 (and possibly the b5 ala the "blues scale.")

So you nearly have all the intervals necessary to build a dominant seven chord, minus the major third. Playing a minor third over a major third produces some dissonance, but in a blues-based context this clash of notes creates an edgy sound that we've grown to like (it's called rock 'n' roll). Often times players will also add in the major third to minor pentatonic scale patterns, or use a combination of both major and minor pentatonic (which is actually combining two different keys).

So, blues-based rock songs can include Mixolydian Mode (a.k.a. the Dominant scale) and/or minor pentatonic. And you don't always have to break the rules. Blues-based players also use the major pentatonic scale over major chords as traditional guitar theory would normally teach.When you combine all these scale choices you end up with lots of notes to include in your melodies, riffs and lead guitar solos.

Play Until Yer Fingers Bleed!
Mr. Desi Serna (Google me!)

[rsguitarplayer]

No, just play A Major Pentatonic- A-B-C#-E-F#-A or F# Minor Pentatonic if it is easier to think of it that way. Same scale. Both will work fine over A Major.

[rsguitarplayer]

If you are playing over A Major, you can play A Major Pentatonic or F# Minor Pentatonic.

[Fender_Bender]

Isn't the idea of playing a minor pentatonic scale over a major progression the idea of "Pitch Axis" Theory? Correct me if I'm wrong, I just learned about this. I believe "Pitch Axis" Theory says that as long as scale and a progression have the same tonic (root) note, you can use other modes (dorian, phrygian, etc.). There may be limitations to this theory, and I'm VERY new to this idea, so take this w/a grain of salt.